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32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

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  • 1.  32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 22, 2010 04:21 PM
    If you like the console in Deployment Solution 6.9 and would like to see it again in DS 7 then subscribe to Symantec's knowledgebase article 49692. The more subscribers they have the higher the priority Symantec will make this.

     https://kb.altiris.com/display/1/articleDirect/index.asp?aid=49692&r=0.2831995





    Article ID: 49692

    FEATURE REQUEST: 32Bit Console for Deployment Solution 7


    Note: If you would like Symantec to implement the product feature request that is described in this article, please subscribe to the article by clicking to the right of this article. While Symantec Product Management evaluates all requests, those that affect more customers (subscribers) are weighted more heavily. As the status of this request is updated, subscribers will be notified of the changes and decisions that are made. If your request differs from this article and the Altiris Knowledgebase does not contain an article with your specific request, you may submit your request via the Symantec web site at http://www.symantec.com/connect/endpoint-management-virtualization/ideas or by contacting Symantec Support.

    Disclaimer: This forward-looking indication of plans for products is preliminary and all future release dates are tentative and are subject to change. Any future release of the product or planned modifications to product capability, functionality or feature are subject to ongoing evaluation by Symantec, and may or may not be implemented and should not be considered firm commitments by Symantec and should not be relied upon in making purchasing decisions.

     

    Product and Version
     
      Deployment Solution 7

     


    Current Product Behavior
    How does the product work now that does not meet your needs?
     
     

    There is no 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

     


    Requested Product Behavior
    How would you like the product to function?
     
     

    To be able to manage DS 7 through a 32bit console

     


    How Product Would Be Used
    How would you use the product if this new feature were added?
     
      To manage Deployment Solution through 32bit console instead of web console


  • 2.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 22, 2010 08:39 PM
    I don't see the point of a Win32 Console for NS 7 and DS 7.1.  It would defeat the entire purpose of having everything all setup and working w/ NS 7 and how everything is built.  Also wouldn't a 32-bit console limit the # of machines you could manage as well.  

    So much has changed in DS 7.1 to improve the way DS runs.  

    For so long we have tried to sell Symantec/Altiris as one console and the ability to manage a computer from bare metal deployment all the way to the retirement of the machine through a single pane of glass/console.  Now this story is actually true, we can actually do it all from the same view.

    While the Win32 console is nice, its about time to get this all onto the web.


  • 3.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 22, 2010 10:30 PM
    Not everybody needs to be in the NS to do DS jobs.  I would like a seperate DS Console for my DS users that still integrates with NS 7.


  • 4.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 23, 2010 08:49 AM
    When Symantec is able to create a web interface for Deployment Console that is as reliable as the 32 bit console I will agree with you. Until then they should stick with the 32 bit console. It is much easier and faster to use.


  • 5.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 23, 2010 09:32 AM
    The web console is actually what is keeping me from upgrading to DS 7. The 32-bit console has always been so much better and faster than the web console. If they get the web console to work as good as the 32-bit console I'm all for it!


  • 6.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 23, 2010 09:57 AM
    Have you used the Silverlight Deployment portal in DS 7.1 at all?  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts when comparing the DS 6.9 console and the DS 7.1 portal page...


  • 7.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 23, 2010 10:02 AM
    I'll have to try that. Silverlight seems pretty fast to me from what I've seem so far.


  • 8.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 23, 2010 01:42 PM
    This seems like an uninformed idea based without knowledge of the Silverlight portal in 7.1.  Also, I thought Ideas had their own forum -- do we really need to crosspost here?


  • 9.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 23, 2010 04:18 PM
    It does not show up in the SIM. Is it still in beta or has DS 7.1 been released? Where can I download it from?

    Thanks,


  • 10.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 23, 2010 11:03 PM
    DS 7.1 is GA - it was released March 1st.


  • 11.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 24, 2010 08:22 AM
    It is here:  http://www.symantec.com/business/products/trialware.jsp?pcid=pcat_infrastruct_op&pvid=deployment_sol_1

    Please note, I believe that NS 7 is required for this to work.


  • 12.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 24, 2010 08:38 AM

    It is not an upgrade to DS7.0.


     



  • 13.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 24, 2010 11:55 AM

    I have just installed DS 7.1. How do you tell which computers are turned on and which computers currently have logged in users?

    I am not liking the lack of the ability to organize computers in folders. The screen looks pretty. While it is early in my evaluation I am still liking the DS 6.9 32 bit console more.

    And what is the deal with the whole installation process? Does Symantec not want their customers to use DS 7.1? Why would you not offer this as an upgrade from DS 7.0?

    Thanks,



  • 14.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 24, 2010 06:23 PM
    I'm still trying to understand some of the design decisions in relation to DS7.1 as well.

    For example:
    • Job conditions are gone (you have to write scripts)
    • Console filters - not sure if they are there
    • I couldn't get a clear answer on whether the system is able to populate inventory data in a pre-boot scenario (in DS 6.x, computers would populate make/model/manufacturer/cpu in pre-boot, without being known to the system, which you could use to perform hardware independent imaging).
    • There's no clear migration path
    • The structure of jobs/tasks is different
    • From my short look at it (run through by pre-sales team) it doesn't have folder structures for jobs and computer groups
    There's a HUGE installed base of DS 6.X out there.  Some customers use DS ONLY for their software distribution - I've even got a few customers using it for Inventory and remote control rather than PCAnywhere/Carbon Copy.  What I've seen so far requires customers to completely re-do their job structures, hardware independent imaging processes and other.  I HOPE I'M WRONG however.

    On the positive side though, the Silverlight console was fast in a demo scenario.  And the integration is much tighter.  I am almost recommending customers to go with DS7.1 if they are new to DS.  But if they have DS6.X "baggage" - I'm not convinced.


  • 15.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 25, 2010 11:28 AM
    Andrew,

    Looking at DS 7.1 I think it is a step in the right direction as SMC 7 is concerned. As for DS, I still believe Symantec and Altiris are going backwards. Some of the features that users like the most about DS are not there. I really believe Symantec should send out a questionnaire asking users what they like the most about DS 6.9. Or at least ask what 7.1 is missing. I just don't believe Symantec understands what those are.

    One of the best features of DS 6.9 is to see right away what computers are on and that users logged in. I can also see very easily what user is logged in. This is gone in DS 7.

    Another problem, which is a problem all through out SMC 7 is how things are organized. For instance, I have to click on Home and then Deployment Portal for some features. For other functions I need to click on Manage>Jobs and Tasks. In DS 6.9 you feel like everything is much more organized and right there without having to go clicking all over the place. There is a lack of ability to organize computers in different groups. In DS I do not organize all of my computers the same as in Active Directory. Our organization has three NS servers with one domain. The ability to organize groups in DS for us is beneficial. You cannot create folders for new task on the Deployment Portal. Again you have to go to Manage>Jobs and Tasks for this.

    I admit DS 7.1 appears to be faster than 7.0, but it is still far slower than 6.9. Scrolling up and down in lists is ridiculous. Even in NS 6.5 you did not have to wait for the screen to load just to scroll down one line. This is just some of the simple things that DS is missing. I know 6.9 has some issues as well. Need to integrate DS with SMC is understandable, but Symantec should implement what they already had in 6.9 and not try and reinvent the wheel.


  • 16.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 25, 2010 12:17 PM

    I think 'uninformed' is the correct word since the OP was unaware that a Silverlight console had already been released at the time of his post which was specifically developed to bring in a look-alike console to DS 7.x.  I've seen the Silverlight console and it looks a ton like the 32-bit console.  Personally, the Silverlight console is a step up.



  • 17.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 26, 2010 12:10 AM
    I am sooo lost on this new console. How the hell do you create a new computer account so you can deploy your image to it?


  • 18.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 26, 2010 08:12 AM
    I would say that the thumbs down probably come down to the fact there was already a discussion going on, which was making the poster aware of the silverlight web console.  From what I can see, your original comment really did nothing to contribute to the discussion.  I for one, actually found the rest of the discussion helpful in bringing to light some of what I didn't know about the new DS.

    I do agree with one of the comments in this discussion about Symantec maybe taking a step backwards with this.  Although, I like a lot of what they added and how they more closely integrated with NS, however, as was mentioned before, I find it very useful to be able to group not only the computers but the jobs/tasks.  I only have 500 computers, I can imagine what someone with 10000+ computers would have to deal with as far as organization.


  • 19.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 26, 2010 08:19 AM

    A 32-bit console isn't needed, and isn't coming back.  The focus should be on how to replicate behavior from the 32-bit console that's still needed, and submitting ideas so that the behavior can be implemented.

    I'm in full agreement that it's sad to be missing a folder structure.



  • 20.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 26, 2010 08:22 AM
    to PXE, and it creates itself, meaning it can't be created ahead of time. At that point you can assign images, configurations, scripts etc. There are Initial Deployment Menus as well, I haven't gotten that far.


  • 21.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 26, 2010 11:16 AM
    I found this video helpful but there is some major functionality missing that really only makes this a beta release.

    https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/videos/system-or-image-provisoning-os-migrations-and-hardware-refreshes-cms-7sms-7


    FYI, I love the idea of the unknown computer task menu list in PXE.


  • 22.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 29, 2010 10:34 AM
    noodleNT,

    That looks like DS 7.0 in the video. DS 7.1 looks different from what is showing in the video. Although to get the full functionality of DS you will need to use these tools as well. DS 7.1 is still not up to par with 6.9.


  • 23.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 31, 2010 12:04 PM
    I don't believe I made any statements that I was unaware of DS 7.1.  I've seen the Silverlight console as well and see very little resemblance of DS 6.9.

    I am all for the web interface if they are able to bring in the features of DS 6.9. Sometimes features are just not capable of being implemented in a web interface. Altiris is not the first to offer a web console and a 32 bit console for an application. Normally a web console is just a thinner version of a manufacturers full 32 bit application.


  • 24.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Apr 05, 2010 01:56 PM

    Symantec Support was able to fix my DS 7.1 console not loading when accessing it from a remote machine or when not using the service account. They had me replace some files to correct the bugs in SilverLight.

    Now that that is out of the way, I am trying to figure out how to put the current DS7.1 console to use. Unfortunatly, I just can't figure out how this is useful when building new machines with the two major steps missing:

    1. Pre-staging Computers
    2. Tokenized Sysprep

    At this point, it looks like DS console is just a reworked Task Console. Any idea when the next updates for DS7.1 are coming?


  • 25.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Apr 06, 2010 04:00 PM

    Is there a side-by-side comparison chart out there somewhere that shows new features as well as features that are missing between 7.1 and 6.9?  Depending on which feature "might" be missing, this would be huge for us and would require a review of products that will support our business model.

    I guess this would be listed in a comparison table like I described but I'm wondering if 7.1 supports wim images and imagex?  The demo shows the ghost format and the user guide doesn't mention specifics.  Also, can the wim file be uploaded directly so I can use SIM to create my own unattend.xml file?  These are probably questions for support but I thought I would ask.


  • 26.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Apr 06, 2010 07:01 PM
    ... this is the way I always did it via DS6.X anyway.


  • 27.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Apr 07, 2010 05:19 PM
    Whats the point in having the console in a webbrowser that has to be a IE7/8, the win32 console is superior and either way you have to run some kind of windows. There is no argument on this planet (yet) to get around this fact!

    I think the silverligt part is working ok, but so many features missing. And the payload of a SMP 7 and DS 7.1 is somewhat to huge for many if you just need to push out an image.

    I use workflow a lot in combination with DS 6.9, and looking at workflow in combination with DS 7.1 is still a journey in the woods - I am looking forward to DS 7.2...


    Cheers


  • 28.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Apr 21, 2010 04:51 PM

    DS 7.1 is not even a consideration until most of the same features that are available in the 32bit console are also found in the web interface, which is why we're still on 6.9sp3.  Nearly everything is going web-based now, so I guess I can see why they want to go that route with future releases.  But dropping features and fuctionality to release a new interface for the sake of moving it to a browser is not smart.  Administrators want tools that are fast, stable, and more importantly, powerful.


  • 29.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Apr 21, 2010 05:04 PM

    I am not sure if anyone else went to Symantec Vision in Vegas but I went to a bunch of classes on DS7.1. I might actually be a convert to the new system. cheeky

    I will need a few weeks to try and apply what I learned but at this point I think everything I need to do in DS; I can do in DS7.1 and Workflow.



  • 30.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Jun 08, 2010 12:20 AM
    From my viewpoint the biggest issues with the move away from DS 6.9 have nothing to do with the console and everything to do with the agents.  Leisuretech mentioned the ability to see logged on users.  This was one of the first ideas that I posted on Connect (https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/idea/computer-status-logged-user-ds7) because we also rely heavily on this functionality.

    Some other things that we'll miss if they don't make it into the NS Agent:

    Remote Control
    I know, I know.  CMS is all about pcAnywhere Solution, but our guys still use the DS remote a lot as a way to connect to a machine before the pcA plug-in is installed, or when the pcA plug-in isn't working.  I could eventually see vPro KVM taking over this role, but that's also going to require all of our PCs to be running AMT 6.0 and that is a very long way off.

    Platform Support
    There's a DS client for more hardware platforms than NS.  We use it today on Windows CE.NET devices and VMware ESX, for example.  The NS Agent will run on ESX 3.5, but not ESX 4.0.  It won't run at all on CE.NET (x86).  HP still ships all their CE thin clients with the DS client, and it's probably going to stay that way for a while.  On the Windows side DS also has a native 64-bit client.  I know that last one is coming soon with NS.  We use DS to automate all of our ESX deployments.  I have no idea how we'd do that with NS or when it would be possible.

    Real-time feedback for specific data
    This goes hand-in-hand with the current computer status and logged on user status.  I saw an enhancement request recently that asked for the NS agent to report back IP address changes when they occurred.  This is absolutely something that should be possible because I could see tying that together with location-specific NS agent policies, or other policies.  Imagine a pcAnywhere client that waits for connections if it's on a one subnet, but docks with an Access Server if it's on another.  This could happen in near real-time without have to wait for policy targets to update and agents checking in for those new policies.

    Read-Only Environments
    DS plays nicely in read-only environments, like Windows XP Embedded systems with a write filter enabled.  That's not supported with NS, and the design of the agent isn't suited for that.  We're currently going through the very interesting process of using NS to manage read-only desktops that are streamed to devices via Citrix Provisioning Server.  With DS it's as easy as wiping out the config file and setting the disk to read-only.  With NS, a /resetguid does not do the job.  You have to wipe the GUID and generate a new one client-side.  That introduces a side effect where the device has a new GUID on reboot and, for a period of time, no longer shows up in the correct filters in NS because the resource GUID in the CMDB is no longer the same.  Hijinks ensue.

    I'm sure that these things will be worked out.  I've heard the word "feature-parity" used to describe the upcoming DS 7.2 release.  That would be nice, but I don't see the items that I just mentioned being resolved before then, and all of these are things that the venerable DS clients can do today.  I like the direction the web console is moving in.  I LOVED the Activity Center demo at Symantec Vision.  I believe Silverlight is a great technology and will perform great with far more nodes than a single DS 6.9 system is capable of handling.  The console, however, hasn't been my concern.  I'm worried about losing some of the functionality that we've come to rely on from the AClient / DAgent / ADLAgent.


  • 31.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Jul 21, 2010 12:26 PM

    Thank you for this thread -  I have combined the user comments above so I can present them to our Deployment team.  Maybe we can create a wiki-wtyle list of action items for Symantec DS developers to address.  I am having a hard time designing a zero touch provisioning process flow that could replace DS 6.9 SP4 funtionality.  
     

    • Job conditions are gone (you have to write scripts)
    • HP still ships all their CE thin clients with the DS client
    • PXE Menu control so you can have network boot disks for repair and remediation of systems
    • WIM support for image creation
    • How does manual imaging with RDeploy work - Firm injection of computer name using RDeploy configuration options.
    • DS-style remote Control function please
    • Return code processing - Conditional job scheduling
    • Out-Of-Band automation (flashing HDD firmware)
    • Console filters - not sure if they are there
    • I couldn't get a clear answer on whether the system is able to populate inventory data in a pre-boot scenario (in DS 6.x, computers would populate make/model/manufacturer/cpu in pre-boot, without being known to the system, which you could use to perform hardware independent imaging).
    • There's no clear migration path for your folder structures
    • The structure of jobs/tasks is different
    • From my short look at it (run through by pre-sales team) it doesn't have folder structures for jobs and computer groups
    • Creating computers and assigning jobs so support no-touch provisioning in the field
    • Embedded bootworks for environments that do not allow PXE as a security issue for migrations
    • Pre-staging Computers - Requires you to boot a new computer to PXE
    • Tokenized Sysprep - Computer name
    • What about embedded bootworks?  We need this at some sites
    • Normally a web console is just a thinner version of a manufacturers full 32 bit application.
    • Folder Structure is missing - Groupong computers in large organizations is a must
    • Scrolling up and down in lists is a problem
    • You cannot create folders for new task on the Deployment Portal -  you are required to go to Manage>Jobs and Tasks for this
    • Not everybody needs to be in the NS to do DS jobs.   I would like a seperate DS Console for my DS users that still integrates with NS 7.
    • One of the best features of DS 6.9 is to see right away what computers are on and that users are logged in.
    • Dropping features and fuctionality to release a new interface for the sake of moving it to a browser is not smart.
    • Remote Control
    • Platform Support VMware ESX Windows CE.NET
    • NS agent needs to report back IP address changes when they occur
    • DS also has a native 64-bit client
    • We use DS to automate all of our ESX deployments
    • Some of us only have time for good performing simple deployment tools and processes, so the NS overhead is not wanted or needed.
    • What is the point in having the console in a web browser that has to be a IE7/8? The win32 console is superior and either way you have to run some kind of windowed application


  • 32.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Jul 26, 2010 02:52 PM

    Wow - nice work Readzzz.  You've compiled a nice list and some of those items I have been asking my rep about and have yet to receive and answer.  Thanks.


  • 33.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 19, 2010 05:29 PM

    During Vision I was talking to some of the DS team and they told me that I could use Workflow to build a job staging wizard. This would allow me to get around some of the short comings of the DS 7.1 console itself. Welll... that isn't the case. Workflow only works with DS 6.9. Here are some things that are holding me up:

    • No GUI to pre-stage computers (Our Help Desk will not use an EXCEL\CSV file!)
    • Its slow! I am finding the agent can take two minutes or more just to start a task once it boots into WinPE.
    • Image deployment task breaks joining to a domain. I use the unattended join option in my unattend.xml file to join the domain and add default AD groups to the Administrators group. This works perfect in 6.9, I have yet to get it to work in DS 7.1.
    • Can't call Rdeploy from a script.
    • Boot To's cause superfluous reboots. If you force a computer to pxe boot before it boots to the OS, it will reboot once it boots into automation to  run the "Boot to Automation task". If I am already there DON'T reboot again, just run the next task!
    • Task Progress is pointless. I want to know what step the computer is on, not how many computers succeeded or failed running the job. In most cases you are only imaging a few computers at a time. I would like to see the progress bar show how far along it is on a task and what computer is running it.
       


  • 34.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 20, 2010 01:25 PM
    I've used the Silverlight portal in DS 7.1.

    It was very nice, for the 4 days that it was functional.  Then it mysteriously stopped working, went blank, and despite spending hours with technical support, with a ticket that was eventually escalated to the DEVELOPMENT TEAM I still don't have a functional Deployment portal.  So all the nice functions in it are inaccessible to me.

    Frankly I'm generally hating Altiris 7.x anyway.  It seems that the lead designers have never actually USED a deployment product before and have utterly no concept of "Workflow oriented design."  I've never seen such a slapdash mess as I have with 7.x

    Of course, half the problem is that some PHB at Symantec decided that using the MS abortion that is Silverlight was actually a good idea.  Drop Silverlight and you will fix half your issues.  Actually giving us a workflow oriented GUI console instead of the slow and buggy web interface would fix most of the rest of the issues too.


  • 35.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Sep 21, 2010 03:39 PM

    I would like to second the motion that the lack of a 32-bit console is preventing us from moving forward with an Altiris upgrade and has forced the big wigs to begin looking at other solutions that are more cost effective.  This was definatley a poor decision by the development team to overlook a 32 bit console. 



  • 36.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Sep 27, 2010 11:05 PM

    We use ONLY the Win32 console and a customised (shows nothing but Helpdesk) worker console. Our provisioning processes, zero-touch deployments, software deployments, patch management, asset and licensing, and all maintenance and remote control... all occurs through the DS and is logged in Helpdesk. It's a small install, it's light, it's fast, and we can't live without it. It's all installed on one (slightly older/slower) server and has no performance issues. Why would we want to replace that with the slow, web-driven, bohemouth SD7 and CMS7 on SMP7... which requires many a dedicated and high-end server... all to replicate our working Helpdesk 6 and the DS 6.9 Win32 Console? Not going to happen... particularly at the new CMS7 licensing costs.

    What annoys me, is that they are issuing End-of-Life on working products in order to push people onto the new systems which can't reproduce needed workflows. In our case, we have seen a ten-fold increase in maintenance/renewal costs for a product that we cannot upgrade to. And it's not that we are afraid of change - we've tried the system. In testing, my ability to create and maintain deployment tasks for the team were significantly delayed and inhibited by the new console (in much the same was as the DS Web v6 product did). The tech staff then had a horrid time using those tasks to deploy to the computers that needed the tasks, especially when drag-and-drop failed (again). It all felt inconsistent, unreliable, and slow. And this isn't just my opinion... several Symantec Engineers and Account Managers have seen the issues, have replicated the issues at their end, and then advised us to NOT use DS 7.1 as it will not work for us.

    As such... give us a Win32/64 console that will work with DS 7.1. It can't be hard. I want to know if the current DS 7.1 limitations are due to the reduction of features and database structure, or simply in the inability for the interface to provide the options? If the latter... I may even write my own interface for the DB. I am considering that now to fix the FlexGrid control issues with IE9. Either that or switch to things like the new "HP Client Automation" package.



  • 37.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Sep 28, 2010 01:30 PM

    I'm the PM over the product that this thread is so actively debating. I have captured the feedback listed in the summary thread by readzzz. It's great information and appreciated. Reading the comments there, I feel good that our "Hampton" release will address many of the concerns expressed but we can't do everything so it's important to me to get the other items in a solid priority order. If you are willing to talk to me personally, contact me via email (rick_gines@symantec.com). I'll also be doing several User's Groups in the next couple of months to meet in person if possible.

    If you are interested and want to discuss what's happening with DS, feel free to reach out to me personally. I'm more than willing to share what's going on with the product but some future discussions require an NDA. I also have thoughts on future strategic items that I'd like to bounce off people who use the product every day. My goal is to build what you want to here's your chance to tell me what you want.



  • 38.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Sep 28, 2010 03:55 PM

    Thanks for posting!  I've sent my e-mail in.  I would imagine others will be doing so as well.



  • 39.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Sep 28, 2010 08:19 PM

    Indeed. Consider the email sent.



  • 40.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Oct 26, 2010 05:40 PM

    I totally agree.  The code needs to be improved so that each part is relevant to the task.  There is a disjoint... not intuitive.



  • 41.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Oct 28, 2010 10:03 AM

    There is a little understood feature in NS that DS lacked - called Views.  Also, there is vastly improved security.  With the two, you can create a custom view of the console that ONLY shows what the customer needs, and ONLY gives them access to what you want.  It's very handy and isn't that hard to configure.  I actually did that as a part of the SMART tools I built.  I'll be posting updates to that soon.



  • 42.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Dec 20, 2010 10:51 AM

    There are many strong opinions here and practical examples of things you can easily do with DS 6.9 that are either not possible or "clumsy" at best using DS 7.0 or 7.1. I've been doing CMS 7.0 engagements since July 2009 and it comes up with every customer who is using DS 6.9.

    I don't think I saw this issue listed above but if the Symantec Mgmt Platform stops OR the Symantec_CMDB database stops, you're dead in the water. No DS functionality until the SMP comes back online. Having Deployment Servers out there in your remote locations comes in real handy when that happens.

    The classic argument regarding a single, centralized mgmt console vs. a distributed mgmt. model has swung back toward the former with the 7.1 release. Both have good and not so good consequences. What works for one customer is not always appropriate for the next customer, but IMHO, losing the DS 6.9 as an option would be a big mistake.



  • 43.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Jan 18, 2011 09:43 PM

    The biggest problem we have with DS7 is the inability to instantly see the "logged on user" as we could in DS6.9

    My Helpdesk guys refuse to adapt for this singe issue and have forced me to install 6.9 alongside 7.1 so they can use this and the other quick pick options.



  • 44.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Jan 19, 2011 09:51 AM

    There's supposed to be feature parity in the "new" 7.1, but I didn't check to see if logged on user was part of that data.  Does anyone recall if this is in the March release?



  • 45.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 07, 2011 10:21 AM

    Being able to see the "logged on user" status in real-time is not yet there.  There have been several enhancements made to the March release in the console that will make imaging and systems management overall much easier, but task services, which is where your current "real time" information comes from, has not been updated to give you a real-time view.

    There is a cost to this, and a tremendous one, and I'm frankly not sure if we'll ever get it.  You have to think about it in real-world terms though.

    1) DS 6.9 only supported 2-5K users on a single server.  That's fine for the smaller environments, but we're trying to scale the product up to larger ones now that NS supports.

    2) NS will support 50K and more clients on a single server, and with hierarchy, even more.

    3) Realistically, if we had 50K clients all updating the NS in real-time, it'd crash.  You do the math.  You simply can't support that level of communication.  I don't know of any computer system that can, unless it's a mainframe.  I'm pretty confident we'd loose customers if we tried to recommend that.  Just a few.

    What that leaves us with is a near-real-time communication, and hence the use of task servers.  The problem is that the updates are not immediate, and I don't think they ever will be, precisely because of what I just mentioned.

    That said...

    There is more we can, and will be doing, but that did not make this release.

    I know we want BETTER icons, that will present better what is actually happening at the clients, so you can tell what's predefined and such.  I'm pretty sure that's coming, but not positive on when.  I'm also pretty sure we can get better status updates during imaging, so you can see the image at 45% instead of "waiting for computer to get job" and then bam "finished".  The system supports this level of communication, but I'm pretty sure it was never implimented.  Doing so will tax the NS though, as well as the site servers, so that "feature" will have to be weighed against overall system performance.  Many of the smaller shops don't have systems capable of this level of communication, and many of the larger shops don't care about it, putting us in the awkward spot of trying to please those that can't use a feature.  :S

    Still, I know both are on "the list" of things to do. We're just not there.  Yet.  It's coming.  I wish I had something I could show you, but I don't.  :(



  • 46.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 07, 2011 07:16 PM

    DS 6.9 has options to auto-install new agent updates. Has an option to see image status (percentages), and basically... has options. For those of us with a site < 2,500 nodes, how about giving us the option to turn these features on? Feel free to put a big red flashing banner at the top of the config page that indicates that it will increase load on the server, and feel free to list a maximum node count. I don't see why this all can't be a tick box in a config page. That way you can give people what they want, whichever way they want to go.



  • 47.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 07, 2011 07:51 PM

    So, in essence, you are saying that Symantec is saying, "We don't care about you smaller users.  Unless you are a huge enterprise, we really don't care if you want to buy our product anymore or not."

    You may not be intending to say this and that might not be what Symantec is really pointing to, but it sure comes off as that way.  I would almost suggest, if they want to keep the current smaller customers (i.e. 100-5000 user bases), that they continue updating and developing 6.9.x and keep the limitation of 5k users per server and bill the 7.x realm to the larger enterprise customers.  Otherwise, you will start to lose quite a few customers as we start jumping ship and start saying, why are we still paying for the AUP, when we will never and can never get what we need/want out of the newer products and will be left behind at 6.9.x.  I for one have a hard time stomaching $20k per year when I am not seeing any upgrade benefits that we can use.  $20k isn't a lot to a company like Symantec, I'm sure, but when you start seeing lots of smaller companies start walking, it's going to add up.



  • 48.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 07, 2011 11:56 PM

    I think it's just a case of facing a trade-off.

    Thomas, couldn't this be provided as an optional functionality which a customer enables through a policy?  There are already performance recommendations regarding policy update intervals, task intervals, and so forth for environments that are different sizes.  Could this be an option that comes with a warning about performance requirements, and which is covered by best practices (in environments of this size, disable logged on user data or set interval to greater than X minutes)?



  • 49.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 08, 2011 08:31 AM

    bhawver: Couldn't agree with you more.  Well spoken. 

    As for trade-offs, I really don't think that's the case.  The trade off is me finding another product.  That's the trade off.  Sorry if I sound a bit bitter but it's frustrating to have the rug yanked out from under you (and yes, I have reviewed and worked with the 7.1 beta version which I know is missing lots of stuff yet).  It's the fact that what bhawver speaks of is completely ignored.  And truth be told, it's not just Symantec that's doing it, a few other major desktop management products have moved to the same type of model as Symantec.   This begs the question, is this being done to "keep up with the Jones's" or is this truly what the enterprise environment is demanding or a combination of both?  Meanwhile those of us with smaller bases are left to scratch our heads....



  • 50.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Trusted Advisor
    Posted Feb 08, 2011 10:37 AM

    The arguments rooted in scalability and server load are frankly not good ones. As already mentioned, we already have knobs to twiddle which balance our client base with our server testosterone, so why not a couple more?

    The answer I suspect is development resource. Symantec had to rebuild NS from scratch, and clearly had to target the large enterprise customer base for NS7 and quick-win features or lose market perception as an enterprise product.  The cost of assuming extraordinary client counts is this reduced functionality we see with respect to real-time behaviour.

    As long as the small/medium business customers keep hollering, these extra knobs will come.

    As for 32-bit console over web-based. I frankly have never seen the point of programming for a specific browser (with a specific set of plugins) over just coding directly. Must be a nightmare coding for Java, Flash and Silverlight on top of the issues we as admins see with such plugins. A 32-bit console doesn't mean you have to have real-time DB feeds, but it does mean you are in complete control of your product.

    But, that is a digression....

    Keep shouting for knobs!

     

     



  • 51.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 08, 2011 11:17 AM

    It just seems to me like everything has a cost.  I manage small environments, and I would very, very much like to have the logged on user feature back.  I guess I just take Thomas Baird at his word that the team is working very hard to get these features back into the product without breaking it.

    The product managers have been at the user group meetings I attend, and they really do care about satisfying the different use cases.  As I said above, I tend to think that it could be made as a feature which a customer could enable (for a performance hit) or disable (for performance savings).

    The people I've met at Symantec are all very interested in getting the product to work for everyone.  I guess that's why I'm more interested in solutions that Symantec could implement and still meet the requirements of different customers, as opposed to bellyachin'.



  • 52.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 08, 2011 12:01 PM

    You're exactly right and that's why I was first in line here:

    https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/forums/looking-real-world-jobstasks

    Plus, I've had other e-mail disussions with folks from Symantec about this transition.  This isn't just some opinion or "bellyache".  It's a very real situation if I care one bit about how I operate and how I provide service and at what cost.



  • 53.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 24, 2011 02:58 PM

    I am just another voice crying for a Win32/"DS6.9-like" console.

    Biggest issue here is speed of refreshing the web console and inability to see online PCs and currently logged-in users. Folders are missed too.

    Thank you.



  • 54.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 24, 2011 04:48 PM

    Why?... Why did you migrate a product to a new technology and not maintain all the usefull functionalities? Where is the "real time" experience of DS 6.x in DS 7? Where is the simplicity of setting up a PXE and personalize the boot OS? Where is bootwiz integrated into the Altiris 7 Console? Sorry, I'm angry

    "I am just another voice crying for a Win32/"DS6.9-like" console" --->> me too



  • 55.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 24, 2011 04:50 PM

    That's exactly what I just heard when I read his statement.  "Sorry little peeps, we're moving on."  25k-50k per box!  wth!  I know I'm a peon, but seriously, that seems like an insane number.  I thought Altiris could be a excellent educational institution product, it's an almost perfect fit. But the focus on those numbers bypasses most colleges and universities. 

    Well I honestly hate to see you go.  I really like DS 6.9.  But I can't fight for a product that doesn't support me.  So I'll take my school's measly 5k clients and attempt to fill the void as best as possible.  Kace is already installed and being configured.  Side by side for a while it seems.

    It does make me wonder though..about the numbers.  I guess Symantec has done the research and there are not five 5k user companies for every one 25k user company.  Because if there were, it would be smarter to disperse yourself among many smaller companies with the same overall number, rather than focus on a few huge companies that have the potential to destroy you should they drop your product.



  • 56.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 24, 2011 05:17 PM

    I think your post may be unfair to what has been said.  I believe what was said is that the tool is flexible, and can support a small number of computers or a large number of computers.  DS 6.x could not support a large number of users.  If the functionality were simply recreated, it would not solve the problem of the large customers with scalability issue.  That is, for a customer with a particular server capable of supporting 10,000 users today, who is only supporting 1,000 users, perhaps the change would be manageable, given the server's hardware and performance.  But for a customer with a server capable of supporting 5,000 or 7,000 users on a server capable of supporting 10,000, it seemed to me (from what was shared above) that it would break things.

    I think what's unfortunate here is that many little guys are cursing Symantec, as though they've bowed down to the big customers and forgotten about the little guy, when all I really see here is that a particular feature, which is well loved by all users of the product (not just the little guys), didn't make it into the new revision because of the impact it would have if it were used on a server managing a large number of computers.

    Wouldn't it be more productive to focus on how nice it would be to see this Logged On User feature return (perhaps as a toggle on/toggle off feature so that the administrator can make a performance determination), as opposed to flaming on about how evil everyone is?  Certainly this pretends that technology is not complex.



  • 57.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 09:06 AM

    1. As long as the web console is 5-6 times slower than the Win32, on a 500 PC environment, how can it be called an improvement - regardless the size? Besides, you can always split a big network into smaller pieces if you're one of the "big guys"...

    2. The feature of current-logged-in-user is so easy to implement. I was actually thinking of a way to make the agent to send (overwrite) a small "custom inventory" with only the hostname, username and time into a custom table every couple of minutes and than read that data in the console and consider the user/PC online if the time recorded is recent enough.

    For now we are using a powershell script to query a specific PC.

    Anybody knows an easy way "tweak" the agent? Thanks.



  • 58.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 09:47 AM

    The console speed improves greatly in 7.1.  Did you participate in the beta?

    You should write an article on the PowerShell script and the custom inventory.  Based on the discussion here, that's certainly something people would be interested in.  And you get points!



  • 59.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Trusted Advisor
    Posted Feb 25, 2011 10:01 AM

    Hi Cosborne,

    I think it is important to remember in all this that Symantec have understood very loud, and very clear that DS 6.9 is a much loved, and respected product. I wish a Symantec PM could put up glowing huge 'sticky' in this forum pointing that out for all of us whose estate depends so critically on Deployment Server.

    The fact is that DS6.9 is still not only fully supported, but is also scheduled for another service pack. There are still programmers actively working on DS6.9, trying to remove the last few niggles that remain with agent comms and WOL.

    With that in mind -I personally think that DS6.9 will be used for YEARS to come. I'd certainly not be surprised to still be answering posts on DS6.9SP5 in 2014.  So, all because DS7 is out there, don't think for a moment and DS6.9 is in it's coffin.

    On the Enterprise Customers vs the small guys issue, I commented below on that exact issue -give it a skim.

    Kind Regards,
    Ian./

     

     



  • 60.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 10:17 AM

    No I have not participated in beta testing...

    I posted the script here:

    https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/downloads/powershell-script-query-whether-pc-online-and-user-logged

    It is not much to it but if it helps anyone else...

    Enjoy!



  • 61.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 12:13 PM

    Hi HHCORP - I've tried accessing the link that you provided but I get a message stating that the author has restricted access to the download.  I'm really interested in seeing this script.   I'm finding myself using more and more powershell scripts so that's why I'm really intersted in seeing this.

    Thanks - James



  • 62.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 12:28 PM

    I have no clue why you cannot see it... It is possible that is waiting for some forum-admin blessing before it goes public.

    Anyway, here it goes:

    #creates the window that asks for computername

    [void] [System.Reflection.Assembly]::LoadWithPartialName("System.Drawing")

    [void] [System.Reflection.Assembly]::LoadWithPartialName("System.Windows.Forms")

    $objForm = New-Object System.Windows.Forms.Form

    $objForm.Text = "Find Logged On Users on a PC"

    $objForm.Size = New-Object System.Drawing.Size(300,200)

    $objForm.StartPosition = "CenterScreen"

    $objForm.KeyPreview = $True

    $objForm.Add_KeyDown({if ($_.KeyCode -eq "Enter")

    {$x=$objTextBox.Text;$objForm.Close()}})

    $objForm.Add_KeyDown({if ($_.KeyCode -eq "Escape")

    {$objForm.Close()}})

    $OKButton = New-Object System.Windows.Forms.Button

    $OKButton.Location = New-Object System.Drawing.Size(75,120)

    $OKButton.Size = New-Object System.Drawing.Size(75,23)

    $OKButton.Text = "OK"

    $OKButton.Add_Click({$x=$objTextBox.Text;$objForm.Close()})

    $objForm.Controls.Add($OKButton)

    $objLabel = New-Object System.Windows.Forms.Label

    $objLabel.Location = New-Object System.Drawing.Size(10,20)

    $objLabel.Size = New-Object System.Drawing.Size(280,20)

    $objLabel.Text = "Enter PC Name:"

    $objForm.Controls.Add($objLabel)

    $objTextBox = New-Object System.Windows.Forms.TextBox

    $objTextBox.Location = New-Object System.Drawing.Size(10,40)

    $objTextBox.Size = New-Object System.Drawing.Size(260,20)

    $objForm.Controls.Add($objTextBox)

    $objForm.Topmost = $True

     

    #displays the window that asks for computername

    $objForm.Add_Shown({$objForm.Activate()})

    [void] $objForm.ShowDialog()

     

    #THIS IS WHERE THE FUN PART STARTS

    #queries DNS for the computername

    #this will be used mostly to error-check any typos in computername

    $IPis = ""

    $IPis = [System.Net.Dns]::GetHostAddresses($x)

    if ($IPis -eq "")

    { $Message = "Host cannot be resolved in DNS"}

    else

    {

    #host is valid; now check if it is online by pinging it

    $ping = new-object System.Net.NetworkInformation.Ping

    $Reply = $ping.send($x)

    if ($Reply.status –eq "Success")

    {

    #Host is online so check if a user is logged in

    $Bulk = gwmi -class win32_computerSystem -computer:$x | Select-Object username

    if ($Bulk.username.Length -gt 0)

    {$Message = $Bulk.username}

    else

    { $Message = "No user is logged in locally"}

    }

    else

    { $Message = "Host not online (ping failed)"}

    }

    #displays the result

    $a = new-object -comobject wscript.shell

    $b = $a.popup($Message,0,"Logged In User",1)

     



  • 63.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 12:50 PM

    That was fast!  Thank you. 



  • 64.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 12:56 PM

    Most content submitted to Connect is moderated and isn't available immediately. The download in question will be available later today - I see that HHCORP has provided the script in his comment.

    Thanks for your patience.

    Cheryl



  • 65.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 05:26 PM

    I created an article that explains how you can monitor online PCs and their respective users right from the web console. It is do-able:

    https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/ideas/online-pcs-and-current-logged-user-web-console

    (Of course the article needs gods blessing first, before it will become available)

    Enjoy.



  • 66.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Feb 25, 2011 06:51 PM

    I understand that we may need to make SOME concessions as we move forward with software and technology, however it confuses me that a product that only supports 5k clients would alienate an entire customer base of users with >5k clients in order to gain traction in new markets.  In my opinion there are three options when looking to obtain a broader customer base.  Either create a NEW product with the focus of the customer base you are targeting, IMPROVE upon your current product to target the new customer base AND provide the service to your current customer base, or leave well enough alone and satisfy the customers that have supported and embraced your service.

    Despite the significant improvements regarding the speed of the web console, they are far too little after moving from a 32 bit console.  It still takes entirely too long to utilize the web console, PXE customization has been removed, the job deployment interface is all but useless, and real-time management is a lost concept.

    It is obvious that the new 7.0 product is a disappointment to many of us and has forced more and more “Altiris” customers to look to other solutions.  Personally, I have struggled to find anything that affects my daily usage of the software that was improved upon from 6.9, and although 7.1 seems to have a better looking interface it does not appear to improve the product that Symantec began with, Altiris DS 6.9.  Rather it improves the product they created, Symantec Managment Console 7.0. 

    What I expected from this new version, and fought for when convincing management to stay with Altiris, was a DS 6.9 upgrade to work better with the management of Windows 7, the integration of PCAnywhere for remote control, and to provide MORE functionality than the product we currently love and rely upon. 

    What I found was an apple to replace an orange.  If there was so much wrong with DS 6.9 and the Altiris customer base then why did Symantec purchase them? 



  • 67.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 08, 2011 03:21 PM

    If the logged on user only changes at logon and logoff, couldn't this data be simplified?  Rather than upload in real-time, or every 5 minutes, could Altiris just send data to the NS during logon and logoff events, something which Altiris already tracks for Primary User calculations and is therefore already aware of?  I realize that currently that data is sent as part of a summary, and that the information would need to be sent immediately, but certainly this could provide some "Logged On User" data even if it didn't provide the status data (in terms of "Active" or "Idle for 17 minutes" and what not).

    Wouldn't that get us partway there, and certainly at no performance hit at all?



  • 68.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 08, 2011 03:51 PM

    That will be much better of course. But I haven't found a way to run a task based on a client event rather than a scheduled time. It might be there, I just don't know it.

    You will also need to run similar jobs at startup and shutdown for the clients that are online but with no user logged on.



  • 69.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 08, 2011 03:57 PM

    I meant Symantec should incorporate it.  But I imagine you could do the startup piece by making it a user-based policy.  It would then run based on the logged-on user.  Not sure, I wasn't thinking this angle -- was thinking that logged on user doesn't change unless a logon or logoff event occurs.  And since they already see logon and logoff events, it shouldn't be that much additional bandwidth to send a miniature inventory whenever one of these occurs.



  • 70.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 17, 2011 12:35 PM

    Web apps in general are lousy apps. They are dependant on the browser and whatever plug-in they are written for. We have web apps that are written specifically for Java 1.3 that we can't get rid of. We have to have VDI sessions created for users that have to use different web apps that require different versions of Java, and we haven't been able to get them to play nice with each other. Java apps just flat out sucks! Sorry, it's the poorly designed app and not the fault of Java.

    This one has it all - Java, Silverlight and Flash. What's going to happen next week when Flash is updated yet again, or the same goes for Java and Silverlight? Java and Flash security updates tend to break web apps. Are we going to be stuck in the same boat now with SMP?

    I want my Deployment Console.  I don't really care if it's Win32 or Win64, but I'd prefer Win64.



  • 71.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 17, 2011 12:53 PM

    Not to get off topic, but here's a possible Java solution for you:

    https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/articles/introducing-symantec-browser-selection-tool
    https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/videos/browser-selection-object-action

    I'm pretty happy with the Console in SMP 7.1.  I haven't run into any Flash, Java, or Silverlight issues yet, and I've even accessed it from a variety of systems.  Not the same that can be said for the DS Console, which had to be installed wherever you went.



  • 72.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 17, 2011 02:23 PM

    That will probably work. We've been holding off on upgrading to Windows 7 because of web app compatibility problems. We still have some PCs that we can't upgrade to IE7 because of web apps that require IE6. I just don't like having to bandaid something because of someone's poorly written application - web or win32. And, from my experience, poorly written web apps far out number poorly written win32 apps.

    Don't get me wrong. SMP 7.1 appears to be a lot better than NS 6, but it still can't replace the Win32 DS.

    As far as having to install DS on every PC. Why? All the installation really does is create an ODBC connection. So all that is required is to create one of those and you can access the Win32 console. A few simple steps and you have the full power of the Win32 DS. Or, you could always use the web app DS v6.x. It too, is lacking the features of the full Win32 client, but for the most part it works just like the Win32 version. No remote control though.

    There are just so many more things I can do with Win32 DS, that I can't do with SMP 7.1. Just to name a few:

    • Create folders to separate out our computers. Ours is loosely based upon our Org chart.
    • Renaming computer objects in DS so I can go right to the person's computer instead of searching for the logged on user. Our computers are named the same as their asset tags/serial numbers. The web DS shows our changed display names as well.
    • If I need an updated inventory all I have to do is right-click, advanced, get inventory. Just Add/Remove Programs, I know. If I need anything more in depth, I can use NS, or SMP.
    • Create filters based upon one of the properties of the computer object, such as Site. I use this for our test group. I suppose something like this is available with SMP 7.1, but I've only had it installed for 4 days and am still getting used to it. I have something similar with an NS Collection, so I'm sure an SMP filter will be similar.
    • If I need to run a command on the computer - right-click, execute.
    • If I need to copy a file to a computer - right-click, copy file to..
    • Replace job conditions with scripting? Seriously? I'm not a developer. If I was, I wouldn't be a in a desktop engineer position. I take that back. I found job/task conditions, but they are empty. Nothing from which to choose. In Win32 DS, I can choose from any of the computer properties and then place a condition on it.
    • Active/Inactive computer indicators. Always helps to know when a computer is active or not. If nothing else, it is a good troubleshooting tool.
    • Ability to create jobs/tasks, folders, etc. all in the same view. I also don't have to change screens to change settings. Yes, a window pops up with settings to change, but at least my main screen is still there when I exit the settings window.

    The list goes on and on, but I'll stop here. If the web-based DS had all the features and was as responsive as the win32 DS, then I wouldn't mind that much. But from what I've seen so far, it doesn't. And, until it does, I'll keep asking for a Win32/Win64 Deployment Console.



  • 73.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Mar 17, 2011 09:13 PM

    Is one of the most useful features of DS.

    I use it daily. It's a fantastic way to get a quick enterprise wide overview of who's in - especially during maintenance weekends.

    Loosing that is actually really sad.



  • 74.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Apr 05, 2011 04:50 PM

    How bout places with crappy bandwidth or spotty connections as another reason for a local console. Our biggest issue even in our larger company is 10000 computers in 45 different sites some with spotty internet. Now they are dead in the water if their link goes down or if the link is just congested the amount of time the console takes to load it embarassing from a service delivery persepctive. With the win32 console they could still run jobs and they werent having to wait for web pages to load and in some cases time out. 



  • 75.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted May 10, 2011 03:35 PM

    Hmmm. NS 7.1 in a browser. This is yet one more reason I don't like web apps.

    http://www.symantec.com/connect/forums/altiris-71-console-and-ie9

    I want an upgraded Deployment Console - preferably 64 bit!

    As far as the logged on user/active computer causing too much bandwidth, why is it that it doesn't cause too much bandwidth for the Win32 console, but it does for the web console?



  • 76.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Trusted Advisor
    Posted May 10, 2011 05:06 PM

    I think the problem here is simultaneous TCP connections -the server can run out of threads to process requests if you have too many connections.

    • The AClient/DAgent by default will keep a constant connection open to the server.
    • The Altiris Agent polls the server every x minutes.

    The result is that in a client base of say 2000 computers, you'll have 2000 AClient/DAgent connections at any one time whereas you may only have a handful of AClient connections made every few seconds.

    So it's not bandwidth, its TCP socket utilisation. This is why on the surface NS scales better[1].

    Kind Regards,
    Ian./

    [1] The AClient and DAgent however can also be configured to poll in a manner similar to the Altiris Agent. This can be used to keep the TCP socket count down on DS boxes too. 



  • 77.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted May 11, 2011 05:16 PM

    I can't seem to locate the source right now, but I recall that you can run both the old agent (aclient or dagent) on a system and it point to the DS 6.9 SPx server and deploy the new Symantec Management Agent (with appropriate plug-ins of course) and leverage the new 7.1 DS environment.  With appropriate configuration (on the PXE side and such) you can safley migrate over to the new agent and still have a back out plan if all goes wrong for you.  However, I would focus on ensuring/testing that all new jobs/images/et cetera work in 7.1 on a good sampling of systems in your environemnt before doing this.  I just thought it was interesting to know.



  • 78.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Jul 23, 2011 09:11 PM

    Custom PXE menus for manual imaging.

    Ease of use

    Get over it Symantec - you made a bad choice when you scrapped the 6.9 console.



  • 79.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 01, 2011 08:52 AM

     

    Hi all

    Not wanting to sound like I'm jumping on the 'slating DS 7.1' bandwagon (!), but I thought I'd put my two cents worth in.

    In my opinion DS 6.9 is far superior to 7.1. Having got 6.9 working really well for XP and Win 7 x64 HIIs, I've been dumped into managing 7.1. And here are just a few of my gripes (!):

    • The ability to pre-create computer accounts by simply right-clicking on a group and entering the computer name and MAC address was so handy when needing to image new computers. This 'pre-defined computer' thing in DS 7.1 is so complicated (for me anyway!). I've not had any luck with it.
    • Why oh why did they integrate the DAgent and Management Agent???!! One of the things I liked in 6.9 was the ability to create a nice clean image which only required the DAgent. Now the scripted OS install automatically installs the Management Agent and the only way to sysprep a machine or capture an image is if it's installed (so there's not point in removing it from $OEM$). Yeah, it can strip out the GUID, but still...
    • I don't know about anyone else, but the 7.1 web console is not only slow (I admit Silverlight is better, but we're not ot CMS 7.1 yet), but gives a different status depending on what screen you're looking at - Deployment Portal says the job is running, Jobs/Tasks properties says job complete, but the Jobs/Tasks 'tasks status' says running. 
    • PXE configuration in 6.9 was very handy. In 7.1 you seem to get on or off. Even the PE environments don't match up with the F8 options because you have to recreate a load of SBS files when you remove one (from what I understand).
    • Initial Deployment - admittedly a realy good idea, but seems to have been rushed through. For a start it just doesn't work. When I select a job the computer just sits there doing nothing. And what if you've got both 32-bit and 64-bit OS's that you're going to be deploying? You have to choose which arechitecture the PE environment will use in the Initial Deployment settings.

    I wonder how much of CMS / DS 7.x was a re-branding exercise and how much of it was implementing new features. I get the impression stamping the Symantec brand on everything was more important than it actually working (PXE in DS 7.0 anyone?!)

    All in all I can see the benefits of integrating NS and DS, but to me this feels like an unfinished product. Seeing a Win32 console would be nice, but I'd be happy with a web console (and product!) that could do the equivalent of DS 6.9.

    You've got a long way to go before you're back up to the 6.9 level, let alone better Symantec! Let's see what 7.2 is like!

    There, rant over!

    Ollie 



  • 80.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 01, 2011 10:35 AM

    7.1 will surpass 6.9 in the near future.  Just not today.  There will be areas we leave completely behind, but the simple truth is that 6.9 had almost hit a wall, and 7.1 has a wide open field in front of it.  It's still behind, but there's a LOT more room to run here, and the opportunities we have surpass that of 6.9 in many ways.

    Yes, I will always PERSONALLY miss the W32 console, but I've learned from the past 3 years that I'm in a vast minority in this realm.  MOST administrators, I'm discovering, prefer web consoles - don't know why yet, but there it is.  It's a statistical fact.  <sigh>  That's the major driver in the change in the consoles, and though it grates on the nerves of some of us, we're in the minority.  <double-sigh>

    So, with that said, DS 7 developers and product managers and support and... everyone, has heard all of these complaints, and more.  The list of things we ARE changing is massive, but the potential is phenominal.

    Some of the quick-dirty-fast features of the 32bit console will probably be gone forever, but I think that once we get the rest of the core "features" done, you'll be plesantly surprised with how flexible the new solution is.

    Now, the only problem is waiting!!!  Argh!



  • 81.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 01, 2011 10:45 AM

    We already have a LONG list of things.  I'll have to review where this one is in the list.  <sigh>

    The management agent is simply a different agent from the DAgent.  Now, you have a management agent in the image instead of a DAgent in the image.  I'm failing to see the difference.  It's one or the other...

    The jobs and task line-up is a pain, but not on this thread.  That's actually a "task" issue.  Yes, it affects DS and trust me I understand.  We're chasing that issue as well.  It's somewhere in the requirements docs, just not sure where.

    PXE configuration in 6.9 was a pain in the ... until you had it memorized and down-pat.  We took call, after call, after call on that.  That said, the F8 option is "broken" in 7.1, which is the main complaint on this bullet item, and I've replied to your other thread on that.  BTW, forget the SBS files rumors you heard - they're full of ... something.  I've documented that process almost to the letter.  SBS files are something WE create, not anything you need to touch.

    The 32bit vs 64 bit architecture was something you chose in 6.9 as well - just a lot easier to choose.  <sigh>  yeah, we've a long ways to go to make job creation easier.  That said, in DS 6.9 you had a single initial deployment option.  7.1 gives you a huge list.  There's an improvement I'd forgotten that the CMS framework gives us in 7.1 that 6.9 didn't have.  Over time, you'll see more and more of these showing up.

    PXE is working fine in 7.x.  I use it exclusively.  Funny thing is that the PXE "Standard" was never supposed to stick around due to it's security holes.  Go look at the standard - it was supposed to die.  DS made it so easy though that people are loath to drop it.  LOL  The short answer though is that the integration was something our customers demanded.  Maybe not you, or anyone else on this thread, but overall, customers have both demanded it, and cheered as we did it.  Overall.  That's big-picture though, and doesn't fix the very real issues brought up here.

    But we're getting to those also.  :D



  • 82.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 01, 2011 12:00 PM

    Thanks for the reply Thomas. It's good to know Symantec are taking feedback onboard. 

    Hopefully my feelings will change when (we finally!) upgrade to CMS 7.1 (from 7.0). I get the impressions CMS 7.1 and DS 7.1 work a lot better.

    Thanks.



  • 83.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 01, 2011 10:51 PM

    DS hit a wall huh - It must have been a wall with a symantec logo just north of the Lindon office.

     

     

    Truly, someone pulled all of the developers off of the 6.9 product and the one guy that is there in Europe has enough work to keep him employed until 2014.

     



  • 84.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 01, 2011 10:57 PM

     

    We always pushed NS to the clients with the DS after provisioning.  You could clone the dagent, so now what do you do.  You have to install and agent to create a sysprep image, but then it is an agent that should not be cloned?

    How does that work?

     

    After running CMS for 8 years I am sitting in front to a 7.1 SP1a console, where it take 30 seconds fo each screen to refresh and I have been waiting for 72 hours for my one site server to show up as a pxe server so I can create one base image and one sysprep image for deployment.

    How many weeks does it take to put up 7.1 sp1 just so you can back up one machine using PXE.

     

    And yes, the services for PXE are running on the core NS server.

     

    "......Why oh why did they integrate the DAgent and Management Agent???!! One of the things I liked in 6.9 was the ability to create a nice clean image which only required the DAgent. Now the scripted OS install automatically installs the Management Agent and the only way to sysprep a machine or capture an image is if it's installed (so there's not point in removing it from $OEM$). Yeah, it can strip out the GUID, but still . . . ."



  • 85.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Trusted Advisor
    Posted Aug 02, 2011 12:45 PM

    Not sure if this is helpful to you, but we put the Symantec Management and PCAnywhere agent on our base image.

    Then we did our capture job which includes prepare for system capture (sysprep) and capture tasks within that job.  This sysprep step takes care of the cloning for when you deploy that image (strips guids, etc).  Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to do.

    The 30 seconds between screens isn't normal, does your NS have appropriate specs per the doc?  are you running SQL on a different box?

    You hsould start a new thread maybe about the PXE issue.  Compared to some other products I tested before we bought CMS, I found the altiris PXE solution easier to set up and had it up with in 2 days.. the 2nd day was spent figuring out I had to manually start those 4 services, but it sounds like you already did that.



  • 86.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 02, 2011 02:01 PM

    If there is no PXE then how do you do a bare metal install or image a computer that doesn't have the management agent yet?



  • 87.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 02, 2011 07:29 PM

    The NS agent in SMP 7.1 is SUPPOSED to be in the image.  Never remove it, if possible.  Some prefer to do things differently, but truth be told, that's the hard way.  WAY hard way.  We built the product on the ASSUMPTION that the SMP agent with the deployment plugins would be in the image.  Just like DAgent needed to be in the image for it to be managed once it came back up, so too, the SMP agent needs to be in the image so that it's managed when it comes back up.  It's the exact same principle.  The SMP agent CAN and SHOULD be cloned.

    The difference?

    If you simply capture the image and let it report back in - say with another product - the SMP agent will muck up the entire DB.  This is where the rumor of "it can't be cloned" comes from.  However, IF you do as the product is designed and actually use the "prepare for image capture" task, then we clean up the SMP agent install so it CAN be cloned.

    THIS is the step that people miss.  For instance, they may run Sysprep manually - not supported.  Or they may simply capture the image without sysprep - also not supported.  

    To "clone" a PC in DS 7.x, the SMP agent SHOULD be on the system, and you NEED to use the "Prepare for image capture" task.

    If you review the Support Quick Start guide we put out, you'll see that we specify this task.  It's a very short KB compared to the very antiquated and nearly useless one that we published way back in DS 7.0 days.  But it's still valid.

    Oh, and use Ghost, or there's a missing task in that guide... I need to update that some day......

     

    Anyway, it's all there and all works.  :D



  • 88.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 03, 2011 01:59 AM

    How many heritage Altiris customers get this one wrong.....



  • 89.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 03, 2011 09:30 AM

    Here is the article that Thomas was talking about, in case anyone else was looking for it

    DS7.1 Support Quick Start - Setting up and configuring Deployment Solution



  • 90.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Aug 03, 2011 08:38 PM

    I've seen several instances where DS6.9 users chime in on a DS7.1 post, suggesting to remove the NS agent first as if it were AClient. (Honestly... they seem to be getting better about it, but I found it pretty irritating when the final release of DS7.1 was first released). 

    It really troubles me how much MIS-information is in these forums. I wish moderators would go back and clean these forums up to remove info that is no longer relevant. A lot of information written here was relevant only when DS7.1 was in BETA for example. Another example of incorrect information: I was searching Symantec Connect for multicast imaging info the other day, and only found four relevant posts on the subject. One of them told me that Ghost didn't support multicasting; I had to use RDeploy. I told that to my co-workers - we would have to use RDeploy if we wanted to use multicasting for imaging. Didn't I look like an idiot when we deployed our Ghost image to 20 computers and they began to multicast!

    Probably the wrong place to complain, but at least I feel better. :)



  • 91.  RE: 32bit Console for Deployment Solution 7

    Posted Nov 03, 2011 05:27 AM

    One of the big selling points of DS is that it save you time. However the upgrade to 7.1 is not going to save me time, I will need to spend about 6 months to get to the same level of knowledge that I have with 6.9.

    The only reason to use a web interface is that you are then agnostic as to platform and browser. If you web interface restricts you to only IE 7 or 8 then quite frankly it is a pointless pursuit.

    I understand their desire to integrate all their products in to one management console for those that live and breath Symantec products but I don't actully want a swiss army knife with all the blades and bits missing apart from the screwdriver bit, I just want a screwdriver.

    Like many of the products Symantec acquire they have taken basical good but slightly flawed product and turned it in to a badly designed, poorly thought out and flawed product.